Bettina Arndt joins Janice Fiamengo, Don Lofendale and Tom Golden to discuss the zany feminist idea that men should be able to cease sexual activity on command.
We all know many women have rape fantasies. I wonder if this is sometimes just an extension of that. If the idea of rape is so stimulating to these women, might they not succumb to the urge to cross the line between fantasy and reality by actually BELIEVING they're being raped? Wouldn't this be even more likely to occur in an environment in which such flights of fancy are encouraged, validated, and rewarded?
And what better context in which to indulge this fantasy than with a safe, caring man who would never actually hurt you?
Men have being falsely accused of rape fantasies. So many men couldn’t get laid if their life depended on it that they dream of a woman actually accusing them of having some type of physical contact.
Great debate on a delicate subject , frank and uninhibited discussion is needed. Bettina at about 34.00 makes the point that in these cases consent has always been given initially and the sex commenced and continued for long enough that it is obvious that the woman was a willing participant . For that reason these cases should be treated differently from the usual meaning of rape.
I would go further and say that in these cases consent could not be “revoked” the meaning of the word is to “take back” but how can you take back something which has already gone? it is too late if the sex has occurred already.
As Bettina said these cases need to be treated differently and a way out would be to treat them as CIVIL matters, then the woman would have to pay her own way , instead of burdening police and the taxpayers.
Sex after all occurs in what could be called “sessions” with a clear start and finish , to say that consent ,once given, can not be revoked for a particular sex session would not mean that consent was also assumed for any future sex ,obviously.
The only way forward would be for the catch-all concept of rape to be re thought as a spectrum...(.in fact arguably most human behaviours are best understood as a spectrum). There's violent rape of a stranger at one end and going off the idea part way through at the other. There are several obvious gradations in between but for brevity I'll not list them. I daresay that these gradations are taken into account in the courtrooms but they should also feature in feminist rhetoric.
As bad as the law is, what on earth is wrong with the men on these juries? They let a man be railroaded into jail because they don't want to be harangued by some feminist nut job on the jury? No wonder women are taking advantage of the men down there.
Good to hear an extended, frank discussion of this matter. I am reminded of Janice's discussion of the violence and anger of early feminism, deftly buried now under the mantra of victimization and exploitation. The calculated ways of trapping and defaming and criminalizing men and male sex behavior (discussed in this video) seem to pair well with governmental attempts to manage private lives. These feminists express hostility and revenge in more intimate ways. No wonder men are withdrawing in more general ways!
sorry to hog the comments -- here is my note to Janice and Tom
I discussed this issue with the young attorney who helped me draft my civil complaint (linked below). Just how many pumps after she says stop…?? It would be comical if not so so sad.
Janice to your point which I won’t fully summarize, I’ve been saying for about 10-15 years that this whole discussion conflates natural sex with rape — and my perception is, that is the whole point.
Feminism is at its essence an anti-sex movement.
If women confuse sex with rape, they will indeed be on guard against anyone they perceive as attractive or attracted to them, and will (I think) have an even stronger reaction to a man to whom they are attracted. Their own arousal will register as a threat (and Wilhelm Reich talked about this — essentially saying that fascism is about grafting the arousal response to anxiety).
Then they can join the Junior Anti Sex League of Oceania.
The feminist attack is on male-female sex. Female-female sex is fine…however, Larry Allen says the data show that the highest incidents of domestic violence are in F-F relationships, followed my M-F relationships, with the lowest incidence in M-M relationships! So the violence shows up where the women are.
As Aunt Josie used to say, “Well how about that!”
Much love and gratitude and thanks for stirring the pot!
I know of no cases of female-female "rape," personally or historically. Assault, there is plenty of. Sexual assault? We might find unprosecuted cases in prisons. However, if there is domestic assault, there is def domestic sexual assault, though are we ever going to find out the details? This may point to a glitch in the rape matrix. Historically rape is an act of war, not a personal act. I think that inherent in the issue as thought of is that "it's something done by a man." We see quite a bit of (for ex) female teachers having sex with underage students, which is technically statutory rape. But these are generally put out as exceptions to the "only men do it" rule. And for the most part we live in a society where we are told that no woman wants sex, men want only sex, and that is the setup. But as a very old man said to me when I was about 16, "Women are hornier than men."
the whole field of sex education is woefully lacking, and sadly, it's all been turned into a potential courtroom drama, or deplatforming experience. In my phony #metoo experience, much of what I was "accused" of was having honest conversations about sex (and writing a poem that nobody has a copy of).
So the anti-sex lobby is all about shutting down the conversation...and making people so stilted that an honest exchange is very difficult. Then everyone such as kids watches porn, and therein, the secretary walks into the office and strips, and her boss fucks her just right. How realistic.
Speaking as a 25-year student of the late Betty Dodson, everyone is responsible for their own orgasm; and I think people would be wise to masturbate together before going full-on penetration or exchange of body fluids.
I wrote this back in December -- feel free to circulate, share or critique...audio is included with the PDF
LOL A bunch of fucking geezers with literally no understanding of what young people are going through talking about something they couldn’t understand if their lives depended on it.
These people should be talking about their pension plans, not anything related to sex. These males haven’t been able to get it up for decades. Go reminisce about the good ol’ days of chivalry when men could beat their wives legally.
Will these old AnTiFeMiNiSmS just put it to rest? You people lost. Your time passed. You guys are irrelevant. Shut up.
Btw, as suspected, the majority leaving comments here are porn-addicted old men who couldn’t get a woman to fuck them voluntarily in a million years. None of you are relevant. Go use 30 year old pics on Tinder as you swipe because nobody cares.
Tell men to stop putting on dresses and forcing themselves into women's bathrooms as well as taking estrogen and forcing their secretions into babies. Men have no respect for not only women, but basic respect for reality. That's the real problem in this world, and it's becoming apparent.
Go talk to the males slaughtering each other in Ukraine at the moment about compassion.
Ted Hughes was infinitely better looking than Sylvia Plath, and a better writer to boot. If we are going to critique groups of men for their appearance we might as well take a look at our selves, or in your case, of the women we choose to represent ourselves.
Sylvia Plath was a genius, and Ted Hughes was a minimally talented, disgusting pig who ruined everything he touched, causing multiple people in his life to commit suicide (not just Sylvia). He wished he could write one poem that even approach what Sylvia did repeatedly.
Yeah, if there's one thing missing in the world, it's criticizing women, especially for how we look. Women just don't judge themselves harshly enough. If only we had more of that! Tell the Taliban.
Genius my ass. She was a narcissistic coward obsessed with her own suffering and victimhood. who killed herself and deprived her children of a mother. It's always the man's fault for a woman's suffering, never the other way around eh? Of course feminists like yourself can only ever appreciate female artists who whinge on monomanically about things that relate directly to them. They seldom look outside themselves at the great big other that is the world, ironically enough. And I don't see the big deal in women caring about their appearance. We are, biologically speaking, the decorative sex after all, and what we lack in intelligence and strength we more than make up for in beauty and charm.
Yes, men are the problem. Always and everywhere, from here to Ukraine to Afghanistan.
You're not smart enough to speak to me. Run along.
Btw, you write like a male incel posing as a woman online because nobody wants to fuck you and you have nothing else to do. That's how bad your writing is. It seems like it comes from a male.
Be ashamed of yourself, and I hope your parents are ashamed at their failures, especially your father (assuming you've met him; that's probably a mistake).
There is nothing to win against low IQ people who have nothing to say, argue, or defend. There is no argument here. These are loser trolls online.
I didn't "attack" identity. I'm saying this comes off as a male who can't get laid and trolls online because he's a loser. True.
What the fuck is wrong with the males on substack? Dead raccoons have better language and logic skills. Get a job, you sad old man. So you can't get laid or have a successful life, so you troll the internet or cry about feminisms? Pure male.
Btw, go talk to mentally ill men in skirts who rape in women's prisons and enter women's swimming competitions. Great job with that psychotherapy work you do!
Ah yes, the anon hiding behind some suicidal female writer from the past tells me I'm a male incel. Ironic your point on me not having a father, I have a great one who is objectively speaking the most moral person I know. I should pity you in fact, you were most likely abused by some man (unfortunate but no excuse for projection) which has led you to believe that all men are terrible. You say I write like a man for defending a rational point, when all you can resort to are hysterical outbursts and ad hominems. I see you have an obsession with transgenderism, just remember that it was woke feminists who pushed for it. When the "patriarchy" was still in charge none of that nonsense would have ever been accepted. Equally, reason and logic, which I see you like to use, if only for attacking transgenderism are masculine concepts. Women have known this from the onset of time, and they never had a problem with it until you unhinged loonies started pathologizing and demonizing an entire sex. You pretend to care about children Kat, but seeing as though you hate anything and everything male that would mean you would hate little boys. Hell for that matter you might hate little girls if they happened to love their fathers and want to defend men. Bear that in mind.
You raised a good point , the mental condition of the woman complainant is normally ignored but might in some cases give insight. Psychology is getting better at helping people, and it is now clear that a persons childhood has a strong and often permanent affect on their attitude to sex and relationships in general .
A woman who had a bad relationship with her father may have difficulty in her relationships with men as an adult, this is one of those “taboo” subjects the feminists are reluctant to talk about .
Well said Ken. Combine the unfinished daddy issues with the mantra of victimhood and the constant urging to attack men and this is what we end up with. ugh
Right , as Janice Fiamengo has said , the feminists are very angry women ,why ? Their hatred for men is irrational, could this come from unresolved childhood trauma ?
If a woman as a child, witnessed her parents bitter divorce she may have been alienated against her father by her mother , this is commonplace and even has a name “parental alienation” .
The selfish mother deliberately deprives her daughter of the important relationship with her father , or sabotages it. The girl is forced to chose between her mother and father ,most times the mother wins but the girl may be subconsiously resentful of her mother .
It would be interesting to know the percentage of feminists who have unresolved issues with their fathers vs the same percentage in non feminist women. Would love to see that.
We all know many women have rape fantasies. I wonder if this is sometimes just an extension of that. If the idea of rape is so stimulating to these women, might they not succumb to the urge to cross the line between fantasy and reality by actually BELIEVING they're being raped? Wouldn't this be even more likely to occur in an environment in which such flights of fancy are encouraged, validated, and rewarded?
And what better context in which to indulge this fantasy than with a safe, caring man who would never actually hurt you?
Interesting idea. I do wonder about this and about the rape fantasy idea. Hard to tell if you are a man....
Men have being falsely accused of rape fantasies. So many men couldn’t get laid if their life depended on it that they dream of a woman actually accusing them of having some type of physical contact.
You obviously have a rich fantasy world, yourself, if you believe that horseshit for even a second.
Great debate on a delicate subject , frank and uninhibited discussion is needed. Bettina at about 34.00 makes the point that in these cases consent has always been given initially and the sex commenced and continued for long enough that it is obvious that the woman was a willing participant . For that reason these cases should be treated differently from the usual meaning of rape.
I would go further and say that in these cases consent could not be “revoked” the meaning of the word is to “take back” but how can you take back something which has already gone? it is too late if the sex has occurred already.
As Bettina said these cases need to be treated differently and a way out would be to treat them as CIVIL matters, then the woman would have to pay her own way , instead of burdening police and the taxpayers.
Sex after all occurs in what could be called “sessions” with a clear start and finish , to say that consent ,once given, can not be revoked for a particular sex session would not mean that consent was also assumed for any future sex ,obviously.
The only way forward would be for the catch-all concept of rape to be re thought as a spectrum...(.in fact arguably most human behaviours are best understood as a spectrum). There's violent rape of a stranger at one end and going off the idea part way through at the other. There are several obvious gradations in between but for brevity I'll not list them. I daresay that these gradations are taken into account in the courtrooms but they should also feature in feminist rhetoric.
As bad as the law is, what on earth is wrong with the men on these juries? They let a man be railroaded into jail because they don't want to be harangued by some feminist nut job on the jury? No wonder women are taking advantage of the men down there.
Good to hear an extended, frank discussion of this matter. I am reminded of Janice's discussion of the violence and anger of early feminism, deftly buried now under the mantra of victimization and exploitation. The calculated ways of trapping and defaming and criminalizing men and male sex behavior (discussed in this video) seem to pair well with governmental attempts to manage private lives. These feminists express hostility and revenge in more intimate ways. No wonder men are withdrawing in more general ways!
Didn't Gore Vidal call this "the tyranny of the orgasm"?
PS I’m sure you’ve all seen this — the Portlandia “cacao” routine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUqs6OGkUdE
Cacao! LOL!
never gets old. It will still be funny the 100th time you watch.
sorry to hog the comments -- here is my note to Janice and Tom
I discussed this issue with the young attorney who helped me draft my civil complaint (linked below). Just how many pumps after she says stop…?? It would be comical if not so so sad.
Janice to your point which I won’t fully summarize, I’ve been saying for about 10-15 years that this whole discussion conflates natural sex with rape — and my perception is, that is the whole point.
Feminism is at its essence an anti-sex movement.
If women confuse sex with rape, they will indeed be on guard against anyone they perceive as attractive or attracted to them, and will (I think) have an even stronger reaction to a man to whom they are attracted. Their own arousal will register as a threat (and Wilhelm Reich talked about this — essentially saying that fascism is about grafting the arousal response to anxiety).
Then they can join the Junior Anti Sex League of Oceania.
The feminist attack is on male-female sex. Female-female sex is fine…however, Larry Allen says the data show that the highest incidents of domestic violence are in F-F relationships, followed my M-F relationships, with the lowest incidence in M-M relationships! So the violence shows up where the women are.
As Aunt Josie used to say, “Well how about that!”
Much love and gratitude and thanks for stirring the pot!
your pal in New York, stirring the pot :-)
efc
https://planetwaves.net/pdf/DRAFT-COMPLAINT-COPPOLINO-VS-LUMINARY-HARVEY-10.1.3.pdf
Hey Eric - Great points! Loved the grafting arousal response to anxiety. We can see that happening.
I know of no cases of female-female "rape," personally or historically. Assault, there is plenty of. Sexual assault? We might find unprosecuted cases in prisons. However, if there is domestic assault, there is def domestic sexual assault, though are we ever going to find out the details? This may point to a glitch in the rape matrix. Historically rape is an act of war, not a personal act. I think that inherent in the issue as thought of is that "it's something done by a man." We see quite a bit of (for ex) female teachers having sex with underage students, which is technically statutory rape. But these are generally put out as exceptions to the "only men do it" rule. And for the most part we live in a society where we are told that no woman wants sex, men want only sex, and that is the setup. But as a very old man said to me when I was about 16, "Women are hornier than men."
edited...
the whole field of sex education is woefully lacking, and sadly, it's all been turned into a potential courtroom drama, or deplatforming experience. In my phony #metoo experience, much of what I was "accused" of was having honest conversations about sex (and writing a poem that nobody has a copy of).
So the anti-sex lobby is all about shutting down the conversation...and making people so stilted that an honest exchange is very difficult. Then everyone such as kids watches porn, and therein, the secretary walks into the office and strips, and her boss fucks her just right. How realistic.
Speaking as a 25-year student of the late Betty Dodson, everyone is responsible for their own orgasm; and I think people would be wise to masturbate together before going full-on penetration or exchange of body fluids.
I wrote this back in December -- feel free to circulate, share or critique...audio is included with the PDF
http://planetwaves.net/pdf/ideas-for-young-men.pdf
LOL A bunch of fucking geezers with literally no understanding of what young people are going through talking about something they couldn’t understand if their lives depended on it.
These people should be talking about their pension plans, not anything related to sex. These males haven’t been able to get it up for decades. Go reminisce about the good ol’ days of chivalry when men could beat their wives legally.
Will these old AnTiFeMiNiSmS just put it to rest? You people lost. Your time passed. You guys are irrelevant. Shut up.
Btw, as suspected, the majority leaving comments here are porn-addicted old men who couldn’t get a woman to fuck them voluntarily in a million years. None of you are relevant. Go use 30 year old pics on Tinder as you swipe because nobody cares.
Are you having a hard time mustering a little compassion for men?
Everything I said is true.
Tell men to stop putting on dresses and forcing themselves into women's bathrooms as well as taking estrogen and forcing their secretions into babies. Men have no respect for not only women, but basic respect for reality. That's the real problem in this world, and it's becoming apparent.
Go talk to the males slaughtering each other in Ukraine at the moment about compassion.
Ted Hughes was infinitely better looking than Sylvia Plath, and a better writer to boot. If we are going to critique groups of men for their appearance we might as well take a look at our selves, or in your case, of the women we choose to represent ourselves.
Sylvia Plath was a genius, and Ted Hughes was a minimally talented, disgusting pig who ruined everything he touched, causing multiple people in his life to commit suicide (not just Sylvia). He wished he could write one poem that even approach what Sylvia did repeatedly.
Yeah, if there's one thing missing in the world, it's criticizing women, especially for how we look. Women just don't judge themselves harshly enough. If only we had more of that! Tell the Taliban.
Run along.
Genius my ass. She was a narcissistic coward obsessed with her own suffering and victimhood. who killed herself and deprived her children of a mother. It's always the man's fault for a woman's suffering, never the other way around eh? Of course feminists like yourself can only ever appreciate female artists who whinge on monomanically about things that relate directly to them. They seldom look outside themselves at the great big other that is the world, ironically enough. And I don't see the big deal in women caring about their appearance. We are, biologically speaking, the decorative sex after all, and what we lack in intelligence and strength we more than make up for in beauty and charm.
Yes, men are the problem. Always and everywhere, from here to Ukraine to Afghanistan.
You're not smart enough to speak to me. Run along.
Btw, you write like a male incel posing as a woman online because nobody wants to fuck you and you have nothing else to do. That's how bad your writing is. It seems like it comes from a male.
Be ashamed of yourself, and I hope your parents are ashamed at their failures, especially your father (assuming you've met him; that's probably a mistake).
So if you can't win an argument you just attack the identity of the other. Pure feminist.
Win an argument?
There is nothing to win against low IQ people who have nothing to say, argue, or defend. There is no argument here. These are loser trolls online.
I didn't "attack" identity. I'm saying this comes off as a male who can't get laid and trolls online because he's a loser. True.
What the fuck is wrong with the males on substack? Dead raccoons have better language and logic skills. Get a job, you sad old man. So you can't get laid or have a successful life, so you troll the internet or cry about feminisms? Pure male.
Btw, go talk to mentally ill men in skirts who rape in women's prisons and enter women's swimming competitions. Great job with that psychotherapy work you do!
You guys are pathetic.
Ah yes, the anon hiding behind some suicidal female writer from the past tells me I'm a male incel. Ironic your point on me not having a father, I have a great one who is objectively speaking the most moral person I know. I should pity you in fact, you were most likely abused by some man (unfortunate but no excuse for projection) which has led you to believe that all men are terrible. You say I write like a man for defending a rational point, when all you can resort to are hysterical outbursts and ad hominems. I see you have an obsession with transgenderism, just remember that it was woke feminists who pushed for it. When the "patriarchy" was still in charge none of that nonsense would have ever been accepted. Equally, reason and logic, which I see you like to use, if only for attacking transgenderism are masculine concepts. Women have known this from the onset of time, and they never had a problem with it until you unhinged loonies started pathologizing and demonizing an entire sex. You pretend to care about children Kat, but seeing as though you hate anything and everything male that would mean you would hate little boys. Hell for that matter you might hate little girls if they happened to love their fathers and want to defend men. Bear that in mind.
You aren't defending anything, dolt. You aren't rational.
This total disconnect from reality makes you come off as a male troll. That is what I'm saying. You can't read well, either. More male behavior.
And use paragraphs. Your irrational ramblings shoved into one big blob is annoying to see.
Go away.
You raised a good point , the mental condition of the woman complainant is normally ignored but might in some cases give insight. Psychology is getting better at helping people, and it is now clear that a persons childhood has a strong and often permanent affect on their attitude to sex and relationships in general .
A woman who had a bad relationship with her father may have difficulty in her relationships with men as an adult, this is one of those “taboo” subjects the feminists are reluctant to talk about .
Well said Ken. Combine the unfinished daddy issues with the mantra of victimhood and the constant urging to attack men and this is what we end up with. ugh
Right , as Janice Fiamengo has said , the feminists are very angry women ,why ? Their hatred for men is irrational, could this come from unresolved childhood trauma ?
If a woman as a child, witnessed her parents bitter divorce she may have been alienated against her father by her mother , this is commonplace and even has a name “parental alienation” .
The selfish mother deliberately deprives her daughter of the important relationship with her father , or sabotages it. The girl is forced to chose between her mother and father ,most times the mother wins but the girl may be subconsiously resentful of her mother .
It would be interesting to know the percentage of feminists who have unresolved issues with their fathers vs the same percentage in non feminist women. Would love to see that.