A friend of mine, who is a feminist, kept harping about how men make more money than women and have all the power. My answer to her was, in every job I’ve ever worked, women made the same money as men. Then I reminded her that more women go to college than men. She still held her belief that men control everything. The whole philosophy of feminism is rotten to the core
yes, reminds me of the quote "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." Once women are locked into feminist beliefs it is nearly impossible to convince them otherwise.
I think that the reason that feminist women are so resistant to changing their beliefs is because those beliefs feel right to them, and for many women what feels true is dominant in constructing their sense of what IS true. We tend to view this dismissively, with derision for their subordination of rationality to feeling, but let us remember that women's world, historically, was the family, which was a space largely protected from reality by men who sought to create an environment where love could flourish. Women have good reason for the dominance that they give to what feels true to them, they came by it honestly - even if it has become dysfunctional now that they are bringing it out of the family space and into the external world of business, governance and ideology. Let's hold them accountable for their reality distortion and attachment to what feels right, but let's do it with compassion, with understanding that they were shaped this way by the forces of evolution operating over thousands of years because, for their role in the family, dominance of feeling was functional in that it served survival.
Wow! I think you’ve just changed my life David. That’s a “simple” and powerful insight into the background to what often seems a “feelings are facts” impression from some women in particular. Thank you.
Worked as a state employee as well as a county employee and a federal employee, and in every case women were paid the same as men. But the women had an advantage over the men, namely, that they could have sex with the bosses and get promotions. Most men did not have that option.
The Pay Gap is one of my favourite things to reply to.
I worked many years as a Payroll Clerk and saw a few female Executives getting six figure salaries and six figure bonuses.
I also worked in an area where, at one point, that out of 15 people there was only one person still being paid under Union conditions and the rest of us were on contracts with regular yearly pay increases - based on performance - and some with bonuses - including myself.
The one person on Union conditions was a female and not liked by our female boss and the female boss and her male boss were out to end Union conditions. Yet the female boss did nothing to give the female employee anything extra, that I'm aware of, and in my head the female boss could have paid this person an allowance of some sort to make sure that she was not disadvantaged.
The same female boss had some conflict with an agency person - female. The agency person maintained that the female boss had promised that she would be employed until after Christmas or at least for a couple of months and then that was stopped. The agency woman was not happy and accused her of lying.
The agency person bailed up our female boss in the toilets and ending up hitting her in the face. It got even worse with some stalking outside of the work place and the whole thing was covered up.
I can only imagine that it was covered up because there was a problem, also, between myself and a another female colleague, who walked out of reconciliation meetings and finally my male team leader realised that 'maybe' I wasn't the big bad bogey man after all!! I had to work with this colleague but because it blew up I was instructed to 'keep away' from the colleague but I needed to ask questions etc., regarding payments. It all got very hot and we all cooled down.
I also did some research a few years ago, I was new to Mens Advocate Groups like this of Tom's and I looked at the rate of pay for Hair Dresses in Britain (I'm not British) and it was quite straight forward: a hair dresser earns X pounds per hour - male or female and the Boss earned X amount.
So how was it that females earned less?
There were only two answers to me, as a payroll clerk:
1. the incorrect Union rate was not paid;
2. Men were doing more hours.
Otherwise, the female employee's should be going to the Union and complaining!!!!????
I'm only ever interested in the hourly rate when it comes to the Pay Gap and not in earnings per year or averages etc.
Even if paid monthly one can break it down to some sort of Hourly Rate.
In Switzerland they have pushed this somewhat but it is illegal to not pay people the same rate for the same job - whatever that means!!
Same. David’s encouragement to have passion for the vision (of what you want eg MLK civil rights) NOT passion for the judgement (eg radical feminism) was a stop-and-rewind moment for me.
Very powerful and very digestible when expressed so simply.
Nothing raises the ire of women...and nearly ALL women...not just feminists...is the idea that they can and should be held accountable to the same standards as men. The problem is so severe that....to be blunt...it makes women almost impossible to employ or work with and is more than adequate justification for refusing to work with women.
So true. It is amazing the potent denial that most women seem to have to the idea that they might have some trouble with being held accountable. One of the more interesting asides is that sometimes they don't even seem to know what it means. It draws a blank. Even if you try to explain it, it doesn't work.
And any suggestion of “accountability” is now dismissed with a wave of the all-powerful “misogyny” card. Which of course then makes any internal enquiry and accountability even less likely.
I suspect there’s a long way to run before that changes.
You need to keep accurate records and build the case for termination based on criteria that even claims of "misogyny" won't cancel. One way to cancel the misogyny argument is to point out that "misogyny" its he word women cry when a man calls out bad behavior or misconduct by a woman or makes an argument to which the woman has no rational or reasonable response. As such....any claim of misogyny should be taken as prima facie evidence that woman is in the wrong unless she can make her argument without reference to her gender.
Example: My stepfather was a manager at a large corporation that made expensive office equipment (in the 5 figure range). He had an employee who was intentionally sabotaging equipment but felt she was untouchable because he was black and she was a black woman. My stepfather built the case with evidence and managed to do something amazing...fire a black woman...who was 9 months pregnant no less!
I cannot answer your question about the sabotage as I don't know and no longer have access to ask (it was 35 years ago). To the bikini question, the work we do involves spending most of our time navigating on small boats individually. Sometimes we are heavily populated areas. Other times we are really rural areas. Often we are out in the heat of the day with no shade from the sun. Some of the younger male workers will take off their shirts once they are out on the water working alone and in remote areas. They always put them back on when coming to shore or in populated areas....or when the sun gets to be too much. None ever wear speedos. The bikini was inappropriate but no one said anything the day the woman dressed that way as we were in a rural area.
The problem the woman created was in the vain assumption that any cameras out (which at this point includes every cell phone) must be attempting to take pictures of HER so dressed. That was not the case. Moreover, if you don't want people to see you dressed a certain way, then don't dress that way in public. It is similar to a situation that the Minnesota Supreme Court has just created. The Minneapolis Star Tribune reported that a woman who claims to work as a stripper at a club was walking around a regular gas station lot topless in the middle of the day. A police officer arrested her for indecent exposure. She argued against it and the Minnesota Supreme Court (morons that they are) said that a woman's breast are not her genitals and that if a man can walk around without a shirt so can a woman. Of course, you know what will happen. Children and some adults will see a woman dressed in this fashion and stare whether out of shock or for less appropriate reasons. Will these women now try to claim sexual harassment? Probably. If the courts are to be consistent with the MN ruling (yes I know...consistency in the courts is not a strong point) all such claims will now have to be dismissed. Women on college campuses have done the same thing....dressing topless as their "right" then complained when people stare at them for being dressed that way. The solution, is, as always, to hold women to the same standard as the men they claim they want to be equal to.
It was a couple of days ago and in the supermarket when I noticed a grown woman wearing a T-shirt that read 'smash the patriarchy'. I was totally triggered. She was with a female teenager and I started to mumble, like an idiot, but without the patriarchy you wouldn't be here doing your shopping you would be out in the fields growing your own food you stupid bitch.. I calmed myself down very quickly.
But what I found astounding, as you said in your comment, that if I stared it would be seen as an outrage. I will never really know.
I've posted elsewhere today that: it is like we are all under a spell!
In one example, we had a woman who came to work with our organization which is basically a group of contractors who work for extended periods in the field living out of hotels but having to be responsible for most of their own work during the day with cooperation only at the start, end and in emergencies. It is heavily male dominated. A woman was hired who had all the technical skills but who quickly became toxic in the work place. In one incident, she accused others of "harassing" her, accusing them of taking pictures of her when she chose to come into work dressed in a bikini (the parties were taking pictures the local geology and landscape which was clearly determined when the pictures were examined). On another she kept everyone waiting for over an hour concerned that something had gone wrong because it was "that time of the month" and she didn't "feel" like coming back on time or even radioing in that there was a delay. It got so bad that people would avoid her even to the point of not wanting to cooperate with her on the group efforts at days start and end. What finally did her in was her accusing the managers of not training her on certain techniques. This was demonstrably untrue as our recording devices show exactly what we were doing at all times and are undeniable. She was asked not to return as the rest of the employees said that if she remained they would not. That is the answer to David Smyth's question. Clear documentation...making clear publicly what is going on so the woman cannot twist the narrative to her favor and...perhaps most importantly, not allowing a critical mass of women with that attitude into the work place in the first place.
David, thank you for sharing how your wife left you. That was a great point of launching the chat.
I particularly found the stats about the Titanic very, very interesting and useful as a party stopper: did you know that 93% of females were saved from the Titanic? I found that interesting that the patriarchy managed to save so many females when the patriarchy is calling for oppression of all women!
Thanks, Jamie. The 93% figure is most interesting when contrasted with the 21% of men who were saved, of course. I find it is most revelatory in a party context if you first ask people to guess what the male and female survival rates were.
An interesting elaboration on that 93% figure - the 7% of first and second class women who perished on the Titanic were almost all married but childless women who gave up a seat in a lifeboat and chose to stay with their husbands.
Yes indeed. While we can't know for sure what was in their minds (maybe some thought the ship wouldn't go down), for those wives who stayed out of love and devotion, wow indeed.
A friend of mine, who is a feminist, kept harping about how men make more money than women and have all the power. My answer to her was, in every job I’ve ever worked, women made the same money as men. Then I reminded her that more women go to college than men. She still held her belief that men control everything. The whole philosophy of feminism is rotten to the core
yes, reminds me of the quote "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." Once women are locked into feminist beliefs it is nearly impossible to convince them otherwise.
I think that the reason that feminist women are so resistant to changing their beliefs is because those beliefs feel right to them, and for many women what feels true is dominant in constructing their sense of what IS true. We tend to view this dismissively, with derision for their subordination of rationality to feeling, but let us remember that women's world, historically, was the family, which was a space largely protected from reality by men who sought to create an environment where love could flourish. Women have good reason for the dominance that they give to what feels true to them, they came by it honestly - even if it has become dysfunctional now that they are bringing it out of the family space and into the external world of business, governance and ideology. Let's hold them accountable for their reality distortion and attachment to what feels right, but let's do it with compassion, with understanding that they were shaped this way by the forces of evolution operating over thousands of years because, for their role in the family, dominance of feeling was functional in that it served survival.
Wow! I think you’ve just changed my life David. That’s a “simple” and powerful insight into the background to what often seems a “feelings are facts” impression from some women in particular. Thank you.
Worked as a state employee as well as a county employee and a federal employee, and in every case women were paid the same as men. But the women had an advantage over the men, namely, that they could have sex with the bosses and get promotions. Most men did not have that option.
The Pay Gap is one of my favourite things to reply to.
I worked many years as a Payroll Clerk and saw a few female Executives getting six figure salaries and six figure bonuses.
I also worked in an area where, at one point, that out of 15 people there was only one person still being paid under Union conditions and the rest of us were on contracts with regular yearly pay increases - based on performance - and some with bonuses - including myself.
The one person on Union conditions was a female and not liked by our female boss and the female boss and her male boss were out to end Union conditions. Yet the female boss did nothing to give the female employee anything extra, that I'm aware of, and in my head the female boss could have paid this person an allowance of some sort to make sure that she was not disadvantaged.
The same female boss had some conflict with an agency person - female. The agency person maintained that the female boss had promised that she would be employed until after Christmas or at least for a couple of months and then that was stopped. The agency woman was not happy and accused her of lying.
The agency person bailed up our female boss in the toilets and ending up hitting her in the face. It got even worse with some stalking outside of the work place and the whole thing was covered up.
I can only imagine that it was covered up because there was a problem, also, between myself and a another female colleague, who walked out of reconciliation meetings and finally my male team leader realised that 'maybe' I wasn't the big bad bogey man after all!! I had to work with this colleague but because it blew up I was instructed to 'keep away' from the colleague but I needed to ask questions etc., regarding payments. It all got very hot and we all cooled down.
I also did some research a few years ago, I was new to Mens Advocate Groups like this of Tom's and I looked at the rate of pay for Hair Dresses in Britain (I'm not British) and it was quite straight forward: a hair dresser earns X pounds per hour - male or female and the Boss earned X amount.
So how was it that females earned less?
There were only two answers to me, as a payroll clerk:
1. the incorrect Union rate was not paid;
2. Men were doing more hours.
Otherwise, the female employee's should be going to the Union and complaining!!!!????
I'm only ever interested in the hourly rate when it comes to the Pay Gap and not in earnings per year or averages etc.
Even if paid monthly one can break it down to some sort of Hourly Rate.
In Switzerland they have pushed this somewhat but it is illegal to not pay people the same rate for the same job - whatever that means!!
This is such a logical and healthy conversation.
The idea of having a vision to move toward, and processing anger privately, particularly struck me.
Men are Good YouTube channel subscribed!
Thanks Anon! Glad you have joined us.
Same. David’s encouragement to have passion for the vision (of what you want eg MLK civil rights) NOT passion for the judgement (eg radical feminism) was a stop-and-rewind moment for me.
Very powerful and very digestible when expressed so simply.
Nothing raises the ire of women...and nearly ALL women...not just feminists...is the idea that they can and should be held accountable to the same standards as men. The problem is so severe that....to be blunt...it makes women almost impossible to employ or work with and is more than adequate justification for refusing to work with women.
So true. It is amazing the potent denial that most women seem to have to the idea that they might have some trouble with being held accountable. One of the more interesting asides is that sometimes they don't even seem to know what it means. It draws a blank. Even if you try to explain it, it doesn't work.
And any suggestion of “accountability” is now dismissed with a wave of the all-powerful “misogyny” card. Which of course then makes any internal enquiry and accountability even less likely.
I suspect there’s a long way to run before that changes.
You need to keep accurate records and build the case for termination based on criteria that even claims of "misogyny" won't cancel. One way to cancel the misogyny argument is to point out that "misogyny" its he word women cry when a man calls out bad behavior or misconduct by a woman or makes an argument to which the woman has no rational or reasonable response. As such....any claim of misogyny should be taken as prima facie evidence that woman is in the wrong unless she can make her argument without reference to her gender.
Example: My stepfather was a manager at a large corporation that made expensive office equipment (in the 5 figure range). He had an employee who was intentionally sabotaging equipment but felt she was untouchable because he was black and she was a black woman. My stepfather built the case with evidence and managed to do something amazing...fire a black woman...who was 9 months pregnant no less!
Thank you for the real life examples. I think they are important to hear about.
More than anything I’m struck by: intentionally sabotaging equipment
!!
Did you find out why she ‘sabotaged’ !!
I find this most interesting 🤨
I found your other story most intriguing also: wearing a bikini to work !!! How come ? Did men wear speedos?
I like your idea of keeping accurate records and that applies to all situations.
I cannot answer your question about the sabotage as I don't know and no longer have access to ask (it was 35 years ago). To the bikini question, the work we do involves spending most of our time navigating on small boats individually. Sometimes we are heavily populated areas. Other times we are really rural areas. Often we are out in the heat of the day with no shade from the sun. Some of the younger male workers will take off their shirts once they are out on the water working alone and in remote areas. They always put them back on when coming to shore or in populated areas....or when the sun gets to be too much. None ever wear speedos. The bikini was inappropriate but no one said anything the day the woman dressed that way as we were in a rural area.
The problem the woman created was in the vain assumption that any cameras out (which at this point includes every cell phone) must be attempting to take pictures of HER so dressed. That was not the case. Moreover, if you don't want people to see you dressed a certain way, then don't dress that way in public. It is similar to a situation that the Minnesota Supreme Court has just created. The Minneapolis Star Tribune reported that a woman who claims to work as a stripper at a club was walking around a regular gas station lot topless in the middle of the day. A police officer arrested her for indecent exposure. She argued against it and the Minnesota Supreme Court (morons that they are) said that a woman's breast are not her genitals and that if a man can walk around without a shirt so can a woman. Of course, you know what will happen. Children and some adults will see a woman dressed in this fashion and stare whether out of shock or for less appropriate reasons. Will these women now try to claim sexual harassment? Probably. If the courts are to be consistent with the MN ruling (yes I know...consistency in the courts is not a strong point) all such claims will now have to be dismissed. Women on college campuses have done the same thing....dressing topless as their "right" then complained when people stare at them for being dressed that way. The solution, is, as always, to hold women to the same standard as the men they claim they want to be equal to.
Thanks for the reply.
It was a couple of days ago and in the supermarket when I noticed a grown woman wearing a T-shirt that read 'smash the patriarchy'. I was totally triggered. She was with a female teenager and I started to mumble, like an idiot, but without the patriarchy you wouldn't be here doing your shopping you would be out in the fields growing your own food you stupid bitch.. I calmed myself down very quickly.
But what I found astounding, as you said in your comment, that if I stared it would be seen as an outrage. I will never really know.
I've posted elsewhere today that: it is like we are all under a spell!
When I say 'all' I mean everyone.
Very true.
In one example, we had a woman who came to work with our organization which is basically a group of contractors who work for extended periods in the field living out of hotels but having to be responsible for most of their own work during the day with cooperation only at the start, end and in emergencies. It is heavily male dominated. A woman was hired who had all the technical skills but who quickly became toxic in the work place. In one incident, she accused others of "harassing" her, accusing them of taking pictures of her when she chose to come into work dressed in a bikini (the parties were taking pictures the local geology and landscape which was clearly determined when the pictures were examined). On another she kept everyone waiting for over an hour concerned that something had gone wrong because it was "that time of the month" and she didn't "feel" like coming back on time or even radioing in that there was a delay. It got so bad that people would avoid her even to the point of not wanting to cooperate with her on the group efforts at days start and end. What finally did her in was her accusing the managers of not training her on certain techniques. This was demonstrably untrue as our recording devices show exactly what we were doing at all times and are undeniable. She was asked not to return as the rest of the employees said that if she remained they would not. That is the answer to David Smyth's question. Clear documentation...making clear publicly what is going on so the woman cannot twist the narrative to her favor and...perhaps most importantly, not allowing a critical mass of women with that attitude into the work place in the first place.
A very engaging and encouraging conversation thank you Gentlemen, which helped me connect several dots.
The link between “the pedestal” and men’s desire and collusion with the idea of female “purity” was a significant a-ha for me. Also some other points.
I too am not very optimistic about major change in the near-term but it’s great to have good company on a journey worth taking. Thanks again.
Yes, I had the same reaction to that idea and it makes so much sense. God bless David Shackleton!
Hello David,
I don't like reading when people post that they 'are not very optimistic about major change'.
I like to think that change is just around the corner... ho hum...
but, I have to admit it is like we are in the middle of a huge spell!!
A spell of irrationality maybe!
Your comment prompts me to watch the conversation again and see how many more dots I can connect for me...
Tom, thank you. This was great on many levels.
David, thank you for sharing how your wife left you. That was a great point of launching the chat.
I particularly found the stats about the Titanic very, very interesting and useful as a party stopper: did you know that 93% of females were saved from the Titanic? I found that interesting that the patriarchy managed to save so many females when the patriarchy is calling for oppression of all women!
Thanks, Jamie. The 93% figure is most interesting when contrasted with the 21% of men who were saved, of course. I find it is most revelatory in a party context if you first ask people to guess what the male and female survival rates were.
An interesting elaboration on that 93% figure - the 7% of first and second class women who perished on the Titanic were almost all married but childless women who gave up a seat in a lifeboat and chose to stay with their husbands.
Thanks for the party tip.
And wow to the 7% childless women who stayed with their husbands.
Yes indeed. While we can't know for sure what was in their minds (maybe some thought the ship wouldn't go down), for those wives who stayed out of love and devotion, wow indeed.