The four of us are talking about possible topics to address or maybe a question and answer session. There are lots of ways this could go, including bringing in the experts you would like to interact with. Please do offer your ideas about this and what you might like.
I'm very interested to understand better the role of testosterone on behaviour especially of young boys, but also men.
I also would be keen to hear a discussion around the scientific research around how much of a young boys behaviour is truly connected to biology and how much by societal expectations.
We have a mutual interest in the biological side of men and boys Kathryne. Can't agree with you more that this is so important for us to understand and for boys to know about. It needs to be taught in public schools and has gotten far too little press when compared with the cultural side. Both are important but one has been neglected. Are you familiar with the Understanding Men section? https://menaregood.substack.com/s/understanding-men
I think the first four articles/videos are on testosterone. I built it to help show the great amounts of research that have been done on men, boys, and masculinity that never hits the press.
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. No, I've not yet explored much on Substack - growing into it. I will definitely get into your articles/videos and explore more. Excited to see what I can learn and happy to know someone else has the same drive to understand this topic. Thank you. Looking forward to diving into your site.
I'm on testosterone blockers that starve prostate cancer. Their ill effects on adults have long been known. Besides sexual dysfunction, they include loss of energy and motivation and weakening of bone tissue. How anyone could say there are no ill effects on children is beyond me.
Hi Tom. I generally prefer to read rather than watch, as this allows me to work around my unpredictable schedule. I would make the effort to watch a live stream, but it wouldn't be my preferred format.
Among other things, I'm interested in the misrepresentation of men in culture - films, television, advertising, news, music, even greetings cards. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. This ties into what Nathanson and Young have described as the "teaching of contempt for men in popular culture". Put simply, modern Western culture indoctrinates society with the message that "women are wonderful and always right, men are worthless and always wrong". This is particularly harmful to boys, who certainly pick up on it. Instead of merely getting angry about this, however, we need to find ways to counter it.
Thanks, from here in the UK, for the excellent work you're doing, and special greetings to Janice Fiamengo, a true ally of men.
Thanks for your comment and I have to agree with you about the ease of taking in information via the written word is more efficient than audio recordings. Then again, the way I am hoping to set this up will enable subscribers to ask questions and possibly to be a part of the stream. We will see.
Maybe a good idea would be to invite Paul Nathanson in to do a livestream for us?
Paul Nathanson would be an ideal guest, Tom. He's been monitoring the cultural demonization of men for decades. Of course, each country is different. Here in Britain, I believe I've detected a modest change in the last couple of years. The trans controversy has brought open criticism of radical, chauvinistic feminists in its wake, and whatever our position on the trans issue, we can all agree that's a good thing. Misandrist ninnies and their male cup-bearers are not getting the free pass they used to, although misandry is still rife in schools, academia, and (to a slightly lesser extent than before) the media.
Men are beginning to find their voices. Long may it continue, and thanks again for your *invaluable* work.
I agree with the "we need to find ways to counter it." The Manosphere is very focused on The Problem, which has been necessary, but I think we also need to try to start hashing out together possible solutions. Since much of the hate for men shows up online, I think we need to work together to target social media spaces -- i.e., specific posts or accounts -- where the weird distortions you described (contempt for men on the one hand and mealy-mouthed woman-worship on the other) show up in ways that are highly visible. I think we might accelerate our growth if we can artificially project strength in numbers. Maybe fence-sitters would then feel safe enough to speak up, at least when we're around to help them do so.
I also think we need safe spaces, something which many in the Manosphere unfortunately poo-poo. I think safe spaces are actually vitally important for us. We can't be fighting man vs world all the time. Sometimes we need a safe place with like-minded people who know where we're coming from to compare notes, vent, talk strategy, share resources, network, ask for support -- all of it. If anything like this exists, I want to be a part of it, and if it doesn't exist, then we need to find the right people to create it.
Love the idea of showing up in force. There is nothing so convincing and it has been what feminists did for decades. If you tried to post anything pro-male 25 years ago you would be attacked from all sides by hordes of angry and spiteful feminists. It took some courage. lol It would take some form of coordination and I am not sure how we might accomplish that. Any ideas?
I agree with you Virgil that we are in need of secure spots where we can speak freely. I am curious what you imagine that would look like?
I strongly agree with Damon, Virgil, and you on the importance of not only identifying the "teaching of contempt for men in popular culture" but also coming up with ways to counter this misandry. Most people tend to disregard warnings about problems when those warnings are not accompanied by specific recommendations on how to combat those problems.
Tactics could include coordinated email campaigns, coordinated boycotts of anti-male companies, and coordinated buycotts of pro-male companies.
I've been peripherally involved in the men's movement -- meaning I show up in comments 😁 -- since 2008-2010, somewhere around there -- so not 25 years myself but long enough to have witnessed the way the discourse has changed for better (and for worse, what with this phenomenon of open misandry that is going on) just like you said.
I knew a woman who succeeded in forming a small group on Facebook that worked together on dealing with misandry online. She started with a Red Pill Facebook page and invited select people to the page's chatroom. She was very good at that sort of thing. It was a very small group, but you got to know the people in it on a friendly level, and if something came up online, you could just share it with the group and ask for help.
I think this could be a starting point, but it would be better to then progress to WhatsApp or Telegram or Discord (if we can survive there) so that branching out to other opportunities on other platforms and generally staying in contact are possible. The relationships matter, I think.
This woman I mentioned was great at coming up with new content to keep people entertained and talking to each other on her page. She was also good at dealing with people in general. I'm not like that myself, unfortunately, but I like to be plugged into it.
If anybody has a group like this and wants another body, contact me at wwe2245 at protonmail dot com.
Here in England, the comments sections of conservative newspapers are typically man-friendly. (Not every supporter of men's rights is conservative or a Republican, I know, but anyway, these tend to be male-friendly arenas.)
I agree with you about safe spaces, and also about the importance of strength in numbers. Interestingly, misandrist comments by women on online forums here in the UK often receive a large number of angry responses, mostly from men, but also sometimes from women. (It should be noted, there are numerous women who dislike misandry, and who are increasingly aware of "the problem".)
As a general rule, I try to challenge misandry wherever I hear it or read it, either online or face to face. It's not easy, especially at first, but the more we do it, the easier it will be for others to follow our lead. He who stays silent in the face of misandry is, I'm afraid, complicit.
I skim everything and go back to read what I want. Streaming forces me to listen to the whole thing or just skip randomly. I may go through twenty articles every morning. Don't have time to listen, so I just skip everything in audio format.
Except for Amelia. I listen to all Amelia videos. She could possibly save the UK.
Oh, man - it warms the cockles of my heart. The British gub'ment, in a lame attempt to lecture its citizens as to why they shouldn't get their knickers in a twist just because the invading army is pressing home its point by raping teen girls all over England and has for decades, had a primitive online game published, named "Pathways." In it a young white Brit is a bit miffed at it all and his purple-haired girlfriend , Amelia, eggs on his Islamophobia, xenophobia, rape-o-phobia and other things a proper Brit shouldn't concern himself with.
So "Amelia" was being held up as a bigoted troublemaker, but the public noticed that what she said made a lot of sense and was, in fact, what EVERYBODY - except for Starmer-the-Wanker et all - were saying.
Of course the planet is filled with AI buffs and experts, and suddenly they realized that a meme could not be jailed for "hate speech." This point might be best described as, "Katy-bar-the-fucking-door."
The Internets have exploded with Amelia videos - and they are really, really good. Very patriotic. Union Jack everywhere. Brown people getting on airplanes headed home. And, by the way, yes, Amelia calls him Starmer the Wanker.
It has got so bad that they took down the original game, but as Ray Stevens said in "The Streak," It Was Too Late. They'd Done Been Mooned.
And, BTW, there are Amelia clones all over Holland, France, Germany - now, that German girl is fetching! And the cherry on top is that Amelia is promoting Rupert Lowe for PM, and he's promised to send the illegals home.
Of course, the BBC and all the lamestream media over there has a blackout on coverage of Amelia, but everyone else is spreading it like a Wuhan virus.
Here's one to start you out. It's more for a younger crowd, but the kids in the UK are going crazy over it.
While surely all of you provide valuable contributions to any topic you discuss, not being a native English speaker I have much less difficulties with reading (and writing) in English than with listening to a livestream. Moreover, reading allows me to check some issues I consider as interesting in detail, and skip others. Of course, it is also easier to improve my English vocabulary when reading a written word in comparison to guessing how something I do not understand is spelled. This is hardly possible with livestreams. All in all, for me understanding a livestream would be much more time-consuming than the posts I can read.
I'd be interested in hearing panel discussion on the topic of roles in marriage over the decades (maybe the last 9 or 10 decades) and how feminism has been the driver behind changing the expectations in marriage and the roles.
I think you should try it and see if it works. Janice Fiamengo's, and Hannah Spier's streams on Youtube are compelling. Two personality streams like Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball's news stream "Breaking Points" have been very successful but 3 and 4 person panels tend to soften and diffuse content and often fail to achieve the necessary energy and focus that holds viewer interest. I subscribe to a number of streams on Substack and Youtube and they are almost exclusively one and two person streams.
Thanks for the comment Victor. Can you offer a link to a favorite stream? I would love to see how they do things. Very interesting idea that things might become diluted with more than two.
I'm not sure whether this is of interest to anyone else -- would love to hear if it is -- but I've been thinking for a while that there is a dearth of supportive resources for men (or male-friendly women) in the Manosphere, which is already the most supportive space for men in the world. 'Supportive resources' could mean literally anything you could imagine -- I think there's a lot we could do to help each other face the current environment. But I mean in particular moral support, even simply P2P moral support. How do you find your mental, emotional, moral, spiritual center of gravity in a world that is darkly, relentlessly hostile to men? Probably the more time you spend online, the harder it is to keep your head. At least, that's the way it is for me. But then it seems to become a choice between just checking out of the hostility towards men altogether and trying to participate in some useful way. If anyone else can relate to this being a struggle, I'd love to hear about it. What does self-care look like for a socially and politically aware man in 2016? How do you cope with all the vile things we see online, especially when even Manosphere content is often consumed with simply regurgitating such content and staying stuck in the "Isn't this awful" phase of discourse? I think we can learn a few things from women, who are further along than we are in this game, and do a lot more fraternally to support each other as we keep up the fight from a very disadvantaged position.
Yes, totally agree that we need to insure we are not stuck in "Isn't This Awful." One way that men today are dealing with this is by meeting online in small groups of other men to do what are being called "check in" groups. You basically check in with what is happening in your life. After a while there is a closeness between the men that develops that is priceless. You get to know each other as men. Do you have some ideas about ways to avoid the "isn't this awful? Would love to hear them.
I would certainly listen to the recordings...the question is whether enough people would be participating "live" to warrant that format. I don't know the answer...so perhaps you should try it and see what happens after a few sessions.
The four of us are talking about possible topics to address or maybe a question and answer session. There are lots of ways this could go, including bringing in the experts you would like to interact with. Please do offer your ideas about this and what you might like.
I'm very interested to understand better the role of testosterone on behaviour especially of young boys, but also men.
I also would be keen to hear a discussion around the scientific research around how much of a young boys behaviour is truly connected to biology and how much by societal expectations.
We have a mutual interest in the biological side of men and boys Kathryne. Can't agree with you more that this is so important for us to understand and for boys to know about. It needs to be taught in public schools and has gotten far too little press when compared with the cultural side. Both are important but one has been neglected. Are you familiar with the Understanding Men section? https://menaregood.substack.com/s/understanding-men
I think the first four articles/videos are on testosterone. I built it to help show the great amounts of research that have been done on men, boys, and masculinity that never hits the press.
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. No, I've not yet explored much on Substack - growing into it. I will definitely get into your articles/videos and explore more. Excited to see what I can learn and happy to know someone else has the same drive to understand this topic. Thank you. Looking forward to diving into your site.
I'm on testosterone blockers that starve prostate cancer. Their ill effects on adults have long been known. Besides sexual dysfunction, they include loss of energy and motivation and weakening of bone tissue. How anyone could say there are no ill effects on children is beyond me.
Hi Tom. I generally prefer to read rather than watch, as this allows me to work around my unpredictable schedule. I would make the effort to watch a live stream, but it wouldn't be my preferred format.
Among other things, I'm interested in the misrepresentation of men in culture - films, television, advertising, news, music, even greetings cards. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. This ties into what Nathanson and Young have described as the "teaching of contempt for men in popular culture". Put simply, modern Western culture indoctrinates society with the message that "women are wonderful and always right, men are worthless and always wrong". This is particularly harmful to boys, who certainly pick up on it. Instead of merely getting angry about this, however, we need to find ways to counter it.
Thanks, from here in the UK, for the excellent work you're doing, and special greetings to Janice Fiamengo, a true ally of men.
Thanks for your comment and I have to agree with you about the ease of taking in information via the written word is more efficient than audio recordings. Then again, the way I am hoping to set this up will enable subscribers to ask questions and possibly to be a part of the stream. We will see.
Maybe a good idea would be to invite Paul Nathanson in to do a livestream for us?
Paul Nathanson would be an ideal guest, Tom. He's been monitoring the cultural demonization of men for decades. Of course, each country is different. Here in Britain, I believe I've detected a modest change in the last couple of years. The trans controversy has brought open criticism of radical, chauvinistic feminists in its wake, and whatever our position on the trans issue, we can all agree that's a good thing. Misandrist ninnies and their male cup-bearers are not getting the free pass they used to, although misandry is still rife in schools, academia, and (to a slightly lesser extent than before) the media.
Men are beginning to find their voices. Long may it continue, and thanks again for your *invaluable* work.
I agree with the "we need to find ways to counter it." The Manosphere is very focused on The Problem, which has been necessary, but I think we also need to try to start hashing out together possible solutions. Since much of the hate for men shows up online, I think we need to work together to target social media spaces -- i.e., specific posts or accounts -- where the weird distortions you described (contempt for men on the one hand and mealy-mouthed woman-worship on the other) show up in ways that are highly visible. I think we might accelerate our growth if we can artificially project strength in numbers. Maybe fence-sitters would then feel safe enough to speak up, at least when we're around to help them do so.
I also think we need safe spaces, something which many in the Manosphere unfortunately poo-poo. I think safe spaces are actually vitally important for us. We can't be fighting man vs world all the time. Sometimes we need a safe place with like-minded people who know where we're coming from to compare notes, vent, talk strategy, share resources, network, ask for support -- all of it. If anything like this exists, I want to be a part of it, and if it doesn't exist, then we need to find the right people to create it.
$0.02
Love the idea of showing up in force. There is nothing so convincing and it has been what feminists did for decades. If you tried to post anything pro-male 25 years ago you would be attacked from all sides by hordes of angry and spiteful feminists. It took some courage. lol It would take some form of coordination and I am not sure how we might accomplish that. Any ideas?
I agree with you Virgil that we are in need of secure spots where we can speak freely. I am curious what you imagine that would look like?
I strongly agree with Damon, Virgil, and you on the importance of not only identifying the "teaching of contempt for men in popular culture" but also coming up with ways to counter this misandry. Most people tend to disregard warnings about problems when those warnings are not accompanied by specific recommendations on how to combat those problems.
Tactics could include coordinated email campaigns, coordinated boycotts of anti-male companies, and coordinated buycotts of pro-male companies.
Gosh, imagine if we could buycott/boycott in enough numbers and with large enough visibility to matter. Probably a very distant goal at this point.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
I've been peripherally involved in the men's movement -- meaning I show up in comments 😁 -- since 2008-2010, somewhere around there -- so not 25 years myself but long enough to have witnessed the way the discourse has changed for better (and for worse, what with this phenomenon of open misandry that is going on) just like you said.
I knew a woman who succeeded in forming a small group on Facebook that worked together on dealing with misandry online. She started with a Red Pill Facebook page and invited select people to the page's chatroom. She was very good at that sort of thing. It was a very small group, but you got to know the people in it on a friendly level, and if something came up online, you could just share it with the group and ask for help.
I think this could be a starting point, but it would be better to then progress to WhatsApp or Telegram or Discord (if we can survive there) so that branching out to other opportunities on other platforms and generally staying in contact are possible. The relationships matter, I think.
This woman I mentioned was great at coming up with new content to keep people entertained and talking to each other on her page. She was also good at dealing with people in general. I'm not like that myself, unfortunately, but I like to be plugged into it.
If anybody has a group like this and wants another body, contact me at wwe2245 at protonmail dot com.
Here in England, the comments sections of conservative newspapers are typically man-friendly. (Not every supporter of men's rights is conservative or a Republican, I know, but anyway, these tend to be male-friendly arenas.)
I agree with you about safe spaces, and also about the importance of strength in numbers. Interestingly, misandrist comments by women on online forums here in the UK often receive a large number of angry responses, mostly from men, but also sometimes from women. (It should be noted, there are numerous women who dislike misandry, and who are increasingly aware of "the problem".)
As a general rule, I try to challenge misandry wherever I hear it or read it, either online or face to face. It's not easy, especially at first, but the more we do it, the easier it will be for others to follow our lead. He who stays silent in the face of misandry is, I'm afraid, complicit.
I skim everything and go back to read what I want. Streaming forces me to listen to the whole thing or just skip randomly. I may go through twenty articles every morning. Don't have time to listen, so I just skip everything in audio format.
Except for Amelia. I listen to all Amelia videos. She could possibly save the UK.
I understand. I am curious about your Amelia videos. Can you give a link to one. I would love to have a look.
Oh, man - it warms the cockles of my heart. The British gub'ment, in a lame attempt to lecture its citizens as to why they shouldn't get their knickers in a twist just because the invading army is pressing home its point by raping teen girls all over England and has for decades, had a primitive online game published, named "Pathways." In it a young white Brit is a bit miffed at it all and his purple-haired girlfriend , Amelia, eggs on his Islamophobia, xenophobia, rape-o-phobia and other things a proper Brit shouldn't concern himself with.
So "Amelia" was being held up as a bigoted troublemaker, but the public noticed that what she said made a lot of sense and was, in fact, what EVERYBODY - except for Starmer-the-Wanker et all - were saying.
Of course the planet is filled with AI buffs and experts, and suddenly they realized that a meme could not be jailed for "hate speech." This point might be best described as, "Katy-bar-the-fucking-door."
The Internets have exploded with Amelia videos - and they are really, really good. Very patriotic. Union Jack everywhere. Brown people getting on airplanes headed home. And, by the way, yes, Amelia calls him Starmer the Wanker.
It has got so bad that they took down the original game, but as Ray Stevens said in "The Streak," It Was Too Late. They'd Done Been Mooned.
And, BTW, there are Amelia clones all over Holland, France, Germany - now, that German girl is fetching! And the cherry on top is that Amelia is promoting Rupert Lowe for PM, and he's promised to send the illegals home.
Of course, the BBC and all the lamestream media over there has a blackout on coverage of Amelia, but everyone else is spreading it like a Wuhan virus.
Here's one to start you out. It's more for a younger crowd, but the kids in the UK are going crazy over it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=3B4524ot5BM&list=RD3B4524ot5BM&start_radio=1
Here's the German version: Maria
Don't get too cosy with her. I got dibs.
https://youtu.be/nQyYwRFUhOA?si=Cc_ULaW9C05RmT74
This one is MY favorite. Really gets the juices flowing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI92RPy8MP4
While surely all of you provide valuable contributions to any topic you discuss, not being a native English speaker I have much less difficulties with reading (and writing) in English than with listening to a livestream. Moreover, reading allows me to check some issues I consider as interesting in detail, and skip others. Of course, it is also easier to improve my English vocabulary when reading a written word in comparison to guessing how something I do not understand is spelled. This is hardly possible with livestreams. All in all, for me understanding a livestream would be much more time-consuming than the posts I can read.
I'd be interested in hearing panel discussion on the topic of roles in marriage over the decades (maybe the last 9 or 10 decades) and how feminism has been the driver behind changing the expectations in marriage and the roles.
Cool.
I think you should try it and see if it works. Janice Fiamengo's, and Hannah Spier's streams on Youtube are compelling. Two personality streams like Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball's news stream "Breaking Points" have been very successful but 3 and 4 person panels tend to soften and diffuse content and often fail to achieve the necessary energy and focus that holds viewer interest. I subscribe to a number of streams on Substack and Youtube and they are almost exclusively one and two person streams.
Thanks for the comment Victor. Can you offer a link to a favorite stream? I would love to see how they do things. Very interesting idea that things might become diluted with more than two.
Breaking Points on youtube. Three examples, krystal and Saagar together, and two examples of their show with four reporters. One with four together sharing the same space, (desk) and another of four in separate screens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBlTrvlbsQ&t=516s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m-CcJZUlxc, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOqULIc1Bo.
I hope you find this helpful.
Thanks for these. I will have a look.
I'm not sure whether this is of interest to anyone else -- would love to hear if it is -- but I've been thinking for a while that there is a dearth of supportive resources for men (or male-friendly women) in the Manosphere, which is already the most supportive space for men in the world. 'Supportive resources' could mean literally anything you could imagine -- I think there's a lot we could do to help each other face the current environment. But I mean in particular moral support, even simply P2P moral support. How do you find your mental, emotional, moral, spiritual center of gravity in a world that is darkly, relentlessly hostile to men? Probably the more time you spend online, the harder it is to keep your head. At least, that's the way it is for me. But then it seems to become a choice between just checking out of the hostility towards men altogether and trying to participate in some useful way. If anyone else can relate to this being a struggle, I'd love to hear about it. What does self-care look like for a socially and politically aware man in 2016? How do you cope with all the vile things we see online, especially when even Manosphere content is often consumed with simply regurgitating such content and staying stuck in the "Isn't this awful" phase of discourse? I think we can learn a few things from women, who are further along than we are in this game, and do a lot more fraternally to support each other as we keep up the fight from a very disadvantaged position.
Yes, totally agree that we need to insure we are not stuck in "Isn't This Awful." One way that men today are dealing with this is by meeting online in small groups of other men to do what are being called "check in" groups. You basically check in with what is happening in your life. After a while there is a closeness between the men that develops that is priceless. You get to know each other as men. Do you have some ideas about ways to avoid the "isn't this awful? Would love to hear them.
The idea may work for many, but I can see the timing not working out for a lot of people. That would reduce the value of the live stream.
Yes, the livestream is recorded and is available as a recorded post so those who didn't get to participate can watch it later when they wish.
I would certainly listen to the recordings...the question is whether enough people would be participating "live" to warrant that format. I don't know the answer...so perhaps you should try it and see what happens after a few sessions.
Most definitely interested
Yes, please.
I never try to watch things live, anyhow. I tend to wait until a recording is posted and then play it at higher speed.